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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:41 am 
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I have come to realize that if the negative introduces a countergoal, they have just taken on the burden of proof and lost the power of presumption. Here's why:

-When one introduces a goal, he is saying that when the judge votes that way, that is what will happen.

-If he claims that the goal will be met, he has to prove it will be met.

-If he does not prove he will meet his goal, then he may lose the round.


Any objecting thoughts?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:45 am 
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Perming goals. I love it. :geek:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:50 am 
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Brilliant.

That is why we never present countergoals.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:27 am 
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I am so running this argument at regionals. I didn't think of it until I was working on my case after the last tournament.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:39 am 
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AntonioDLP wrote:
-When one introduces a goal, he is saying that when the judge votes that way, that is what will happen.
-If he claims that the goal will be met, he has to prove it will be met.
-If he does not prove he will meet his goal, then he may lose the round.


Um...duh?

Have you ever met an LDer? We know this stuff.

;)

GumboSoup wrote:
That is why we never present countergoals.


Yay, you're admitting you can't back up anything you say! (Right...sarcasm.)

But if you're talking about presenting a counter-goal on negative then usually all you'd have to prove is that the status quo is upholding that goal. Which might not be TOO hard...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:22 am 
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Sorry for reviving a two month-old thread.

How does the negative team lose presumption by proposing a counter-goal? They may have the burden to prove their counter-goal, but even if they fail to prove it, they are still the defenders of the status quo, and the status quo has presumption. Just trying to understand, here.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:24 am 
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What is the source of this "presumption" idea in the first place?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:49 am 
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TR IV wrote:
Sorry for reviving a two month-old thread.

How does the negative team lose presumption by proposing a counter-goal? They may have the burden to prove their counter-goal, but even if they fail to prove it, they are still the defenders of the status quo, and the status quo has presumption. Just trying to understand, here.


Exactly I'm an advocate of the negative having their cake and eating it too. If you lose counter-goal you can always still win by showing aff goal is also a loser, if you are both a loser that means there should be no change and SQ prevails without change the neg should win.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:26 am 
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Halogen wrote:
What is the source of this "presumption" idea in the first place?

A fifty year-old legislator knows more about an issue he voted on than an eighteen year-old debater like me. Therefore, we give him the benefit of the doubt. We start out assuming the expert is right. We presume that the status quo is innocent until proven guilty.

Getting rid of status quo presumption also has a real-world impact: it leads to lopsided case decisions.

The affirmative team always has an inherent advantage because it has spent a large amount of time perfecting its case. The negative team, on the other hand, has had to divide its research time among dozens of cases. The only way to level the ground is to give the negative team presumption.

I think Dr. Srader explained it very well here:

http://ethosdebate.com/2008/10/29/what- ... dr-srader/

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:54 am 
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if the neg presents countergoals, they have to be prepared to argue values and criteria. by presenting countergoals the neg is steering away from a typical impact-war and moving in the direction of arguing the policy aspect of the round on a more fundamental level, that is, how do we decide what makes good policy. In order to do this effectively, the neg may have to present value arguments to answer the question of what is it that we value, and how does that determine our goals as a political entity. a criteria may also be needed in order to immanentize this metaphysica question into the policy context of a debate round. In other words, you have to answer the question of why your goals are preferable on both a philosophical and a concrete level.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:39 am 
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GumboSoup wrote:
Brilliant.

That is why we never present countergoals.
Does this mean that the NEG can legitimately argue that the AFF goal shouldn't be considered because the NEG must sacrifice presumption to present an alternative? That would be an epic metadebate press to write.

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