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 Post subject: Timeframe CP/Lame Duck
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:49 pm 
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I just came up with a really wacky argument for this fall.

Link: Aff fiats Congress to pass this plan NOW.
Link2: We're in a lame duck session right now.
Link3: Many senators and representatives have already been voted out
Impact: No accountability to the people.
Impact2: Something about aff plan undermining accountability or democracy.

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:50 pm 
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Sharkfin wrote:
I just came up with a really wacky argument for this fall.

Link: Aff fiats Congress to pass this plan NOW.
Link2: We're in a lame duck session right now.
Link3: Many senators and representatives have already been voted out
Impact: No accountability to the people.
Impact2: Something about aff plan undermining accountability or democracy.

Thoughts?
fiat power

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Sharkfin wrote:
I just came up with a really wacky argument for this fall.

Link: Aff fiats Congress to pass this plan NOW.
Link2: We're in a lame duck session right now.
Link3: Many senators and representatives have already been voted out
Impact: No accountability to the people.
Impact2: Something about aff plan undermining accountability or democracy.

Thoughts?


Like Danny said, "fiat power." I think when it comes to political capital DA's and this argument, the team running the argument is confused about fiat power.

For me, fiat power is simply the assumption that the plan would come into existence, not necessarily that we force a certain number of Congressmen to vote for the bill. Fiat takes the debate into the realm of "should" not "would", and I don't think political capital DA's operate under that same framework, per se.

Delta_FC

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:31 pm 
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Delta_FC wrote:
Sharkfin wrote:
I just came up with a really wacky argument for this fall.

Link: Aff fiats Congress to pass this plan NOW.
Link2: We're in a lame duck session right now.
Link3: Many senators and representatives have already been voted out
Impact: No accountability to the people.
Impact2: Something about aff plan undermining accountability or democracy.

Thoughts?


Like Danny said, "fiat power." I think when it comes to political capital DA's and this argument, the team running the argument is confused about fiat power.

For me, fiat power is simply the assumption that the plan would come into existence, not necessarily that we force a certain number of Congressmen to vote for the bill. Fiat takes the debate into the realm of "should" not "would", and I don't think political capital DA's operate under that same framework, per se.

Delta_FC

People arguing a tix/policap disad don't say that you don't have the fiat power to pass this. They say, once it's passed, we look at the results, just like any disad. When the plan says "Congress shall pass," that necessitates Congresspeople voting for it. It's reasonable to assume it's a unanimous vote, too, since having the aff A. fiat individual congressmen or B. say in the 2AC/1AR "Oh, it's ok, we didn't say we'd fiat THAT person" is abusive to the neg and skews disad ground.

Everything that happens post-fiat is disad ground, potentially. Aff can't say "We fiat that this ground won't be disad ground"

As far as "should vs would" again, it's not a solvency argument. Your plan will go into effect. But should it? Here's a list of bills that are likely to fail if your plan is passed, and that's bad.

The subject of this thread is even simpler, since it deals with arguments that are easier to brink. The aff becomes Congress/has control of Congress when they pass their plan. Their plan is passed in a lame duck session. Mpx of accountability since, in all likelihood, a significant number of Congresspeople, through retirement, (forced or otherwise) won't be returning after January 2011.

Dang, we really don't agree on anything around here, do we? ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:51 pm 
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I have no idea what fiat has anything to do with this.

We know that if the aff plan is passed, Congress will pass it immediately. We also know that we are in a lame duck session right now. The affirmative is inherently endorsing the idea that we should pass policies when a large part of Congress is unaccountable to the people. Is this seriously a good idea?

Nothing to do with fiat.

Quote:
For me, fiat power is simply the assumption that the plan would come into existence, not necessarily that we force a certain number of Congressmen to vote for the bill. Fiat takes the debate into the realm of "should" not "would", and I don't think political capital DA's operate under that same framework, per se.

We're not talking about a certain number of Congressmen. We're talking about the very idea that we should pass a plan during a lame duck session.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:17 am 
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Sharkfin wrote:
Impact: No accountability to the people.
Non-unique. No plan in TP debate is accountable to the people, since Congress passes it whether or not they like it. Really, it's the judge who circles "Affirmative", like that's accountable to the people.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:32 am 
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Halogen wrote:
Sharkfin wrote:
Impact: No accountability to the people.
Non-unique. No plan in TP debate is accountable to the people, since Congress passes it whether or not they like it. Really, it's the judge who circles "Affirmative", like that's accountable to the people.

I think the meaning is that the Congresspeople often can't get voted out, since they already got voted in or out in the midterms.

So America has no ability to vote out the people they already voted out, but the voted out congresspeople still get to vote on important legislation.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:14 am 
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That still has no unique impact. There's no reason why it matters that congresspeople in the lame duck session have been voted out. Any impact to that already links to every other TP plan.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:25 pm 
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Halogen wrote:
That still has no unique impact. There's no reason why it matters that congresspeople in the lame duck session have been voted out. Any impact to that already links to every other TP plan.

Two notes:
1. Why is it bad that it links to every plan? I don't see that as an effective impact.
2. That's not quite what I mean by accountability. You said: " No plan in TP debate is accountable to the people", which is true, but that's not my argument. My argument is that Congress is not accountable-- the cannot take responsibility for their actions when they've already been voted out. The idea that we would pass important and significant legislation when many members of Congress (and up to a little more than a tenth of the Senate) is completely unaccountable is antithetical to that which our Republic is based on.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:15 pm 
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Sharkfin wrote:
1. Why is it bad that it links to every plan? I don't see that as an effective impact.
Because the DA would make TP debate impossible. And I'm not just talking about every plan run during a lame duck section; I'm referring to every TP plan that ever existed.
Sharkfin wrote:
That's not quite what I mean by accountability. You said: " No plan in TP debate is accountable to the people", which is true, but that's not my argument. My argument is that Congress is not accountable-- the cannot take responsibility for their actions when they've already been voted out. The idea that we would pass important and significant legislation when many members of Congress (and up to a little more than a tenth of the Senate) is completely unaccountable is antithetical to that which our Republic is based on.
None of that matters in debate. The purpose of accountability is to prevent people from making policies unaccountably. Why else would it matter that legislators are accountable to the people? However, since the judge is not accountable to the people (and should not be), there's no possible way to run a plan without linking to the DA impacts.

Basically, it's a non-unique DA *cough*kritik*cough* without an alternative.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:43 pm 
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Halogen wrote:
Sharkfin wrote:
1. Why is it bad that it links to every plan? I don't see that as an effective impact.
Because the DA would make TP debate impossible. And I'm not just talking about every plan run during a lame duck section; I'm referring to every TP plan that ever existed

No it wouldn't. 1. Aff could outweigh. 2. Aff could argue it's fine to pass in lame duck. 3. This only applies to lame duck sessions.

Quote:
None of that matters in debate. The purpose of accountability is to prevent people from making policies unaccountably. Why else would it matter that legislators are accountable to the people? However, since the judge is not accountable to the people (and should not be), there's no possible way to run a plan without linking to the DA impacts.

Basically, it's a non-unique DA *cough*kritik*cough* without an alternative.

No. The judge isn't accountable. Obviously. But we pretend the judge is Congress, don't we?

The point is, we're pretending this is the real world Congress. Ergo, we should face that same code of ethics/accountability standards/whatever you want to call it, as Congress does.

Plans run after the new Congress is sworn in wouldn't link to the plan. Because in this world we're creating with debate, the American people will be able to vote out the Congresspeople if they want to.

What we're talking about is inside the world debate creates, not the physical person that is the judge.

That said, I'm not sure how much I like the point.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Flash of Light wrote:
Plans run after the new Congress is sworn in wouldn't link to the plan. Because in this world we're creating with debate, the American people will be able to vote out the Congresspeople if they want to.
Why does it matter whether or not the American people could vote out the Congresspeople after the plan is enacted?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:42 pm 
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Halogen wrote:
Flash of Light wrote:
Plans run after the new Congress is sworn in wouldn't link to the plan. Because in this world we're creating with debate, the American people will be able to vote out the Congresspeople if they want to.
Why does it matter whether or not the American people could vote out the Congresspeople after the plan is enacted?

Accountability.

If a good deal of the Congresspeople aren't accountable to the public, they shouldn't get to pass significant legislation, outside of an emergency situation.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:49 pm 
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Flash of light wrote:
Accountability.

If a good deal of the Congresspeople aren't accountable to the public, they shouldn't get to pass significant legislation, outside of an emergency situation.
Why?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Halogen wrote:
Flash of light wrote:
Accountability.

If a good deal of the Congresspeople aren't accountable to the public, they shouldn't get to pass significant legislation, outside of an emergency situation.
Why?

Accountability is kinda one of the big things in out system of government.

Basically it ensures people are able to control their government. Tyranny is prevented, to use a rather dramatic example.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:34 pm 
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AFF could also fiat that only certain Congressmen vote for the plan. If more than 217 representatives and 50 senators retain their seats (highly likely), you could spec that they vote for the plan. I guess you run into murky O-Spec water, but... idk.

Though I'm not sure this really matters too much (at least for R10), since the session begins in January, before most tournaments (at least for R10).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:35 pm 
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Flash of light wrote:
Basically it ensures people are able to control their government.
The only reason they would need to control their government is to prevent it from doing something bad. In TP language, people should be able to control their government in order to prevent it from causing DAs.

This is where the lame duck DA loses its meaning. The only reason why it might possibly matter is because the plan could cause DAs without letting the people do something (what would they do?) to the legislators afterward. In other words, the lame duck DA really just means, "if the aff plan links to DAs, legislators can't be punished for enacting the plan." However, legislative accountability has no effect whatsoever on the DAs. Legislative accountability does not let the people repeal a policy after it has been enacted. A plan that results in North Korea launching an ICBM is exactly the same as a plan that results in North Korea launching an ICBM without letting the people punish legislators for it.

If legislative accountability makes no difference on the plan's effects, then it's not a DA.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:06 am 
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Umm...question. If congress voted down a piece of legislation in a lame duck session, would the DA apply? The way it's formatted now, I would argue that it would.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:13 am 
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OppositeWay wrote:
If congress voted down a piece of legislation in a lame duck session
Does this mean

"If Congress previously voted the plan down by the time the judge enacts it in a lame duck session"

or

"If the aff plan is for Congress to vote down a piece of legislation in a lame duck session"

?

Either way, what exactly would the plan link to? Why is it bad?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:01 pm 
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The most you have is a timeframe argument on solvency.

Also, what is all this noise about "lame duck"? Lame Duck means they can't do anything (like the president after he's voted out). Congress is not "lame duck", Congress does not exist right now. Not in session. Trying to fiat them would mean that they have to be called back for a special session (which, correct me if I'm wrong, can happen?), or the plan would have to wait till the next Congress came in to office, which is only a few months away. At best, you have a tiny little timeframe arg.

If you want to get a tad picky, you can argue that the plan says "now", and so Congressmen would be called back from campaigning and a special session would occur. Maybe you can get a disad off of special session (generic)? or that they have to stop campaigning? Really though, it's kind of a silly argument to make.

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