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 Post subject: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:04 pm 
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I was mowing someone's lawn today and got to thinking; can a kritik be permed? I mean my preliminary reaction is that it can. But if the kritik operates pre-fiat, then how can it be permed?

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:47 am 
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I believe this is a subject up to much debate among theory wonks, but I don't have enough knowledge to explain how it might work.

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:57 pm 
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Cause I was thinking.

1) You Can't: Because kritik operates pre-fiat, and the plan is post.
2) You Can: Because you could concievably perm mindsets. For example: Capitalism K permed = compassionate capitalism or something along those lines. So it would be like argueing that the plan is one extreme, the kritik is another extreme, both are equally bad, but a perm leaves us with a compromise that's better for all. :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:49 pm 
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The pre-fiat/post-fiat discussion isn't a very good one, in my opinion. It effectively treats some parts of the debate round as "real" and some as "fake," which is a very silly way to privilege arguments in an activity that is entirely fake. The logical extension of the idea is particularly dangerous, because if the "pre-fiat" arguments have out-of-round implications, then judges are ethically bound to only support pre-fiat arguments that they believe in. That's particularly poisonous in the NCFCA/Stoa environment, because aside from CCA I can't think of any debate community that is so ideologically homogeneous.

So, we're left with kritikal arguments operating in a different framework than traditional cost-benefit arguments, but without either of them being treated as inherently more "real" than the other one (in my opinion, people should generally do their own, argument-specific impact analysis for that kind of weighing).

Under my framework, at least, the kritik can definitely be permed because any combination of all of the aff advocacy + some or all of the alt proves that the alt isn't actually an "alternative" to the affirmative and therefore the kritik doesn't demonstrate that the affirmative is bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Wraith Leader wrote:
The logical extension of the idea is particularly dangerous, because if the "pre-fiat" arguments have out-of-round implications, then judges are ethically bound to only support pre-fiat arguments that they believe in. That's particularly poisonous in the NCFCA/Stoa environment, because aside from CCA I can't think of any debate community that is so ideologically homogeneous.

Hadn't thought of that one before. Definitely something to think about.

Wraith Leader wrote:
Under my framework, at least, the kritik can definitely be permed because any combination of all of the aff advocacy + some or all of the alt proves that the alt isn't actually an "alternative" to the affirmative and therefore the kritik doesn't demonstrate that the affirmative is bad.

That's where I run into a problem. The kritik almost operates at the sub-conscience level, therfore the framework for the K operates outisde of the plan, treating the plan simply as an indicator of a larger problem: an ideal, an assumption etc. If the mindset exists even before the aff advocacy and the plan is simply the indicator of the issue we are really dealing with, then how can advocacy and the alternative be weighed?

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:28 am 
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Wraith Leader wrote:
The pre-fiat/post-fiat discussion isn't a very good one, in my opinion. It effectively treats some parts of the debate round as "real" and some as "fake," which is a very silly way to privilege arguments in an activity that is entirely fake.


Although you are correct in stating that the round is fake, per se, this doesn't eliminate the important distinction between pre-and post-fiat arguments. the imaginary delineation between 'real' and 'fake' is a necessary construct stemming from the creation of the also imaginary world that the policy aspect of the debate round operates in. the 'fake' part of the round is the policy aspect, the 'real' part of the round is the activity and the...i want to say 'metaphysical' rules that enable that activity to exist and have educational value. this aspect of the debate round is real in the sense that the speeches, the c-x sessions, and the evidence is all 'real'. that aside...

The kritik is eminently permable in that affirmation or rejection of the thrust of the K in no way affects acceptance of the resolution. It may, in fact, override the acceptance or negation of the resolution if the impact of the K is sufficient to outweigh the post-fiat arguments of the aff. Perming only operates on shaky theoretical ground when it involves the neg advocating something that may encompass the resolution.

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:00 pm 
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Mr. November wrote:
Perming only operates on shaky theoretical ground when it involves the neg advocating something that may encompass the resolution.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 272804600#
The K is about logocentrism; the plan text being the center of the round. The Alt was to draw a line through it on your flow. (It sounds dumb but it was pretty beastly) The perm was to pass both the plan and the crossed-out plan.

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:33 pm 
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Perming a K? Hm. Isn't that like meta-meta debate?

And also, how would you even go about perming a k, say if it were a capitalism k on you?

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Quote:
Although you are correct in stating that the round is fake, per se, this doesn't eliminate the important distinction between pre-and post-fiat arguments. the imaginary delineation between 'real' and 'fake' is a necessary construct stemming from the creation of the also imaginary world that the policy aspect of the debate round operates in. the 'fake' part of the round is the policy aspect, the 'real' part of the round is the activity and the...i want to say 'metaphysical' rules that enable that activity to exist and have educational value. this aspect of the debate round is real in the sense that the speeches, the c-x sessions, and the evidence is all 'real'. that aside...


Haven't seen you in forever, man. We should catch up.

Content-wise, I think that "the K" operates in a really mushy theoretical space because there is literally no reason that it must be in either a "pre-fiat" or "post-fiat" framework. Kritiks that draw from international relations literature, for example, generally have the impact of "turns case impacts" and that's all - if I win that the affirmative's realist methodology guarantees continued war and non-war violence, that's pretty "post-fiat."

The only kritiks that would impact to the existence and educational value of debate are the "dirty word" and "bad out-of-round" kinds of arguments that we get from project teams that are explicitly trying to change the debate community or its norms and practices.

I'm uncomfortable with the pre/post-fiat distinction in critical debate because it seems very oversimplified - just because ontological debate functions somewhat differently than policy debate doesn't mean that one necessarily comes before the other, and those impact comparisons really need to be made by debaters. I can understand use of "pre-fiat" for procedural arguments, but generally anything with a fairness or jurisdiction impact is given priority anyway.

Quote:
And also, how would you even go about perming a k, say if it were a capitalism k on you?


There are many ways to perm a capitalism K. I'll describe a few, and explain how they work.

1. Perm - do the plan and the alt. Read evidence that your plan is, in fact, a subversion or rejection of the capitalism that the negative attacks. You're going to win this debate if they have generic links and you have specific perm evidence; on the other hand, you will probably lose if they have specific link evidence and you have generic perm evidence or analytical arguments only.

2. Perm - do the plan. Read evidence that the collapse of capitalism is caused by making its internal contradictions more and more glaring, which can only be done by willingly overextending capitalism. This works really well if the alternative talks about an ethical duty to resist capitalism but doesn't define what form that resistance would take (the evidence I'm thinking of is Zizek and Daly '04, which is a fairly common card in capitalism files).

3. Perm - do the plan and the alt. Read evidence that ethics precede political economy, or evidence that people should work within a flawed system for incrementally good change even if they know that the system is awful. This works best if your plan has some kind of ethical imperative in it.

4. Don't perm. Read a bunch of "capitalism good" evidence and just turn the K completely. Works best if you cut cards from people who actually write intelligently (so no Mises Institute or Cato - their idea of "capitalism" isn't anything like the real world anyway).

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:46 pm 
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What about do the plan then the alt?
Say, your advs are about ... the environment, their alt is marx, and you have some cards about how marxism (or they read them) can help the environment LATER, but your plan can do it NOW...so do the plan, then do the alt.
While we're at it, can you do that to cps too?
Or what about, perm, rethink the plan with the alt?

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Delay perms are bad because the delay isn't in either the plan or the alt - it's called an intrinsicness perm, and it's bad because you're adding something that wasn't in the original plan text to prove that the alt works with the original plan text. Doesn't prove anything and makes you look dumb.

Rethinking the plan with the alt only works if you can do the plan while thinking "rightly." Which means you have to beat the link evidence first. You're usually better off beating the alternative instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Wraith Leader wrote:
Delay perms are bad because the delay isn't in either the plan or the alt - it's called an intrinsicness perm, and it's bad because you're adding something that wasn't in the original plan text to prove that the alt works with the original plan text. Doesn't prove anything and makes you look dumb.

Mm, okay, I know what intrinsicness is, I was just wondering if there was any way to do it.

Quote:
Rethinking the plan with the alt only works if you can do the plan while thinking "rightly." Which means you have to beat the link evidence first. You're usually better off beating the alternative instead.

Liiike...gendered language? "Perm: rethink the plan w/o gendered language" (like they used the word "he" in a solvency card or something)

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:38 am 
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Sure. Practically all of the different "dirty word" kritiks can be permed pretty effectively, which is only one of the reasons I don't think they're very strategic. The apology perm also can work well.

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:15 am 
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do NCFCA judges actually buy this kind of thing now? if so, can I magically make myself about 8 years younger?

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:21 pm 
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Lol, "apology perm". Before the Training Minds CO Conference last year, we stumbled upon and printed the "eco-anarchist manifesto" and used it as some k lit, and everone we ran it against was like "sorry!"

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:30 am 
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Mr. November wrote:
do NCFCA judges actually buy this kind of thing now? if so, can I magically make myself about 8 years younger?

Oh that they would... but alas, it is not to be. I would be in heaven if NCFCA judges bought theory arguments period.

willmalson wrote:
Lol, "apology perm". Before the Training Minds CO Conference last year, we stumbled upon and printed the "eco-anarchist manifesto" and used it as some k lit, and everone we ran it against was like "sorry!"

Lol, would did you expect them to say?

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:23 am 
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willmalson wrote:
Lol, "apology perm". Before the Training Minds CO Conference last year, we stumbled upon and printed the "eco-anarchist manifesto" and used it as some k lit, and everone we ran it against was like "sorry!"

I beat a sexism K (from saying "common man") last year by simply apologizing. It makes sense, honestly. If they push it further, I'm ready to pull out the, "don't blame me because I'm a victim of a [sexist/fill in the blank] society" line.

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:58 am 
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Elliot wrote:
Mr. November wrote:
do NCFCA judges actually buy this kind of thing now? if so, can I magically make myself about 8 years younger?

Oh that they would... but alas, it is not to be. I would be in heaven if NCFCA judges bought theory arguments period.

willmalson wrote:
Lol, "apology perm". Before the Training Minds CO Conference last year, we stumbled upon and printed the "eco-anarchist manifesto" and used it as some k lit, and everone we ran it against was like "sorry!"

Lol, would did you expect them to say?

pretty much anything but that.

013 wrote:
willmalson wrote:
Lol, "apology perm". Before the Training Minds CO Conference last year, we stumbled upon and printed the "eco-anarchist manifesto" and used it as some k lit, and everone we ran it against was like "sorry!"

I beat a sexism K (from saying "common man") last year by simply apologizing. It makes sense, honestly. If they push it further, I'm ready to pull out the, "don't blame me because I'm a victim of a [sexist/fill in the blank] society" line.

"Sexism inevitable", right?

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:27 am 
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Well, that's my next line of defense. Initially, I basically said, "we apologize for using such language, and will do our best to not use it in the future. The entire point of the K is that such language should not be supported because it harms society, and both teams agree with that. They also brought up education, and that has been fulfilled by this dialog on the issue. There is simply no reason at all to vote against us on this issue."

They dropped it after that.

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 Post subject: Re: Perming a Kritik
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:22 pm 
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Mk, here's how i see it. Let's define what we're talking about here. A K is, it's a prefiat "critique" of the language and mindset of the opposing team. A perm is a test of competitiveness, if an argument can be permed then aff (or neg) shows that the argument doesn't conflict with the aff plan (or mindset). This leads to two options: 1. because it ain't competitive it's no reason to vote neg and reject aff, or 2. Since it ain't competitive there's no reason that both couldn't happen simultaneously in the real world and that means that if you vote aff, you could theoretically get both advs.
So how do we perm this baby (if ever?)
In my opinion you could, but would you really want to? In fact the process of perming a K kinda morphs into other generic responses for example:
Suppose i run a case that sells nuclear technology to Russia
I get k'd for having a mercantilist mindset because i want the gov to facilitate the market instead of relying on investors and entrepreneurs in the free market, and mercantilism leads to socialism, dehum, etc
As an aff in response i could perm it by saying it's not competitive and thus it's no reason to vote neg and against me...but how do i do that? The way i see it, the only way to perm it like this is to do just a simple delink, show how it doesn't apply and thus it's no reason to reject aff. However, this line of argumentation isn't even a perm...over the course of the argument it's turned into something else entirely, a delinkage!?!?! In my mind, a clear delink is the only way that you show a mindset isn't competitive, you just have to say that it's irrelevant to the round because aff ain't advocating it or whatever
(If i'm missing something here then please alert me!!! :shock:)
If i want to perm the argument and say that both can exist at the same time, i have to a. turn the argument and show why mercantilism is a good thing or b. i have to just say that it's already happening in the sq and everything is ok. This doesn't even respond to the k, but merely show that the effects aren't catastrophic. Again, the perm becomes a pseudo-turn not even a legit perm!!!?!?!?!
Weirdness :?
Comments anyone?

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