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 Post subject: T impacts
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:07 pm 
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Hey there, i'm new to HSD (though i'm not new to debate!) and i was wondering what ya'll's thoughts were on the best and most effective T-press impact. I was just trying to figure out which impact would have the most optimal effect on community judges :) I mainly use A priori and fairness but lots of times CJ's don't even look at T when making the decision. How can i impact it so that it's a voter in the forefront of the judge's mind??
-thanks guys!

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:19 pm 
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In my experience, community judges are more likely than parents and alumni to vote on fairness and education. The key is to super-clearly articulate very specific ground loss and resulting loss of education. They won't make arguments in their heads for the debater who just says "this is a voter for fairness and education."

However, to deal with the 90% of judges who judge with this "vote against the argument, not against the team" mindset, I run a resolutional impact with two sub-arguments: "we're debating the resolution" and "the affirmative isn't defending the resolution." I justify "we're debating the resolution" with a very brief explanation of the educational benefit of debating a single resolution for a year and of the necessity to maintain consistency of unwritten rules, when these unwritten rules are implicitly followed in almost every other round. Basically, it's a disguised version of fairness/education that gives the judge something on which to vote if aff doesn't argue impacts, but which also gives me a shell to extend nicely into an articulated scenario of ground loss / education loss if aff does argue impacts. Not to mention, it makes neg look like smart logicians instead of lazy people unwilling to research (even though they're exactly the same impacts).

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:34 pm 
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hey thanks man...i might definitely think about using it next time!!

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:39 pm 
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nate hammett wrote:
Hey there, i'm new to HSD (though i'm not new to debate!) and i was wondering what ya'll's thoughts were on the best and most effective T-press impact. I was just trying to figure out which impact would have the most optimal effect on community judges :) I mainly use A priori and fairness but lots of times CJ's don't even look at T when making the decision. How can i impact it so that it's a voter in the forefront of the judge's mind??

I've been thinking about certain T-presses this year, and the impact will depend on the T-press. For instance:

(1) Last year, most of my T-presses basically argued: "This is environmental policy. This is aff's plan. They are not the same." <== For a simple T-press like this, the best impacts, IMO are (a) Two Negs/BoP, and (b) Fiat Power. Those are both really convincing and easy to explain.

(2) This year, I'm thinking there will be a lot of "extra-T" presses. These are a lot harder to impact, because in many cases the affirmative team's plan won't be a direct violation of the resolution. But if you go about explaining how the affirmative team's distortion of the resolution expands their ground and contract yours (as neg), then you're basically going to have to do a voter on fairness. Which is harder.

Those are my thoughts for the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:15 pm 
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thanks preston! As for me x-tra i think should be impacted by cross-applying the same impacts because aff is still off topic, whether its a little off topic or completely off topic. Education/neg fairness i know is a standard impact because xtra T explodes aff ground but what do ya'll think about it??

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:59 pm 
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I wrote about that awhile ago. However, there are other (probably) MORE relevant threads on the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:21 am 
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Once I've shown why the case is extra-topical, I will often use something along these lines (using this year's resolution):

"The affirmative team's case doesn't change our policy in the way specified by the resolution. Thus, regardless of the benefits of their case, they still haven't given you (the judge) a single reason why we should change our policy towards Russia. The affirmative has a burden to prove that our existing policy towards Russia needs fixing, and until they do that, the status quo stands firm."

Now that I think about it, it doesn't really sound like an impact, but it makes sense, so I use it. :D

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:32 am 
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NO EDUCATION IMPACTS!!! Those sound whiny.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:37 pm 
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^Why don't you read notMensa's post ;)

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:50 pm 
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run_with_God wrote:
NO EDUCATION IMPACTS!!! Those sound whiny.
Only if you run it without articulating ground loss.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Education is totalllyy legit if ran well. You don't say, "Aff is robbing us of learning because this case has nothing to do with the resolution and the resolution is all we care about. :evil:" You have to explain it. Tell the judge why education matters. This round won't benefit you or the aff or the judge substantially in the future because, theoretically, you're not going to hit the case again because it's non-topical. Therefore, it's a round wasted. Also, having non-topical cases running throughout the year adds an extra research burden because it pressures every neg team to research non-T cases, which they absolutely shouldn't have to. That takes away the time we can spend researching topical cases. Finally, if you have no evidence, you can point out that no one gets any education because neg can't run any cards since they don't have them, due to the fact that we have no clue what non-T cases we could hit.

I think it works a lot better if you run it that way--making it clearly about education--than just saying "this isn't fair, this gives us a research burden and hurts the round." Explain why it hurts the round. Explain why non-T cases should be voted against--so that affs don't run them again. This is academic debate. We're supposed to be learning, not trampled over.

In my experiences, judges don't like wishy-washy impacts that aren't explained well. You can't just say, "Impact 1. Fairness. They're nooot being fairrrrrrrrr. We didn't knowwww they were going to run that case!" While technically, fairness is a completely true and reasonable argument, it sounds whiny and judges don't like it. You have to really explain why T matters and how voting against aff isn't just going to cut you a break in the round, but keep everyone in the rules of the game and prevent negs in the future from having to waste time researching and debating a non-topical case.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:39 am 
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The best impact to Topicality is loss of fiat power. Or more officially, No Jurisdiction. It's the only impact that I know of which is a voter. Think about it. Lack of clash or loss of educational value are great arguments (I run them all the time) but should they really change the judges decision? On the other hand, if being non-topical takes away your solvency you do have a reason to vote negative.

Just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:47 am 
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Wilberforce wrote:
The best impact to Topicality is loss of fiat power. Or more officially, No Jurisdiction. It's the only impact that I know of which is a voter. Think about it. Lack of clash or loss of educational value are great arguments (I run them all the time) but should they really change the judges decision? On the other hand, if being non-topical takes away your solvency you do have a reason to vote negative.

Just my two cents.
Right, but the reason for the judge to view the round through the perspective of resolutional fiat/solvency is none other than the fair and educational purpose for the existence of the resolution in the first place. Running No Jurisdiction as a voter is actually just restating "vote negative on topicality" in alternative terminology. The reason to factor the resolution into the debate is because the resolution encourages fair and educational debate.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:15 am 
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. The best way to have NCFCA judges understand fairness/derivatives of fairness impacts on T is to pull a reductio ad absurdum on the aff interp.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:35 am 
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013 wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The best way to have NCFCA judges understand fairness/derivatives of fairness impacts on T is to pull a reductio ad absurdum on the aff interp.
By cross-applying the standards debate to the impacts?

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:33 pm 
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I suppose you could say that, sure.

Example: I got creamed by a team NATO year when they ran a T press saying that the resolution insists that you have to reform NATO itself, not have NATO do some action. The example they gave was that under the aff interpretation, aff teams could have NATO giving ice cream to kids in Africa and be topical.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's a rhetorical device, not really anything with regard to what impacts or what standards you run. If all legitimate T impacts are either fairness or fairness in disguise, so you should have no problem figuring out ridiculous examples to give the judge to prove your point.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:18 pm 
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Wilberforce wrote:
The best impact to Topicality is loss of fiat power. Or more officially, No Jurisdiction. It's the only impact that I know of which is a voter. Think about it. Lack of clash or loss of educational value are great arguments (I run them all the time) but should they really change the judges decision? On the other hand, if being non-topical takes away your solvency you do have a reason to vote negative.

Just my two cents.


Actually, loss of fiat power and jurisdiction are two different impacts.

Loss of fiat power means just that: Aff only has fiat power that comes from the rez. If they're not within the rez, they don't the fiat power from the rez.

Jurisdiction means that the judge doesn't have the "jurisdiction" to vote for the Aff because there is no Aff team in the round. The Aff side of the ballot disappeared, so the Neg box is the only one to check.

Delta_FC

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:59 pm 
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Wilberforce wrote:
The best impact to Topicality is loss of fiat power. Or more officially, No Jurisdiction. It's the only impact that I know of which is a voter. Think about it. Lack of clash or loss of educational value are great arguments (I run them all the time) but should they really change the judges decision? On the other hand, if being non-topical takes away your solvency you do have a reason to vote negative.

Just my two cents.


I think this is great advice. thehomeschooler, and others, I have know education and the others are valid, but they still are more nebulous. The judge may feel that the affirmative's case is interesting and relevant and may not agree. As to fairness, judges tend to split 50/50 on this one. If the AFF can just put enough doubt in the judges mind, the judge will NOT vote on it but simply consider it a moot issue. it's not the greatest.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:06 pm 
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The problem with the loss of fiat power impact is that it attaches a post-fiat impact to a pre-fiat issue. I'm not a fan.

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 Post subject: Re: T impacts
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:14 am 
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013 wrote:
The problem with the loss of fiat power impact is that it attaches a post-fiat impact to a pre-fiat issue. I'm not a fan.


I think of it like this... TOPICAL POLICY is in a small circle. if you are not topical, you are not in the circle. Fiat Power is given ONLY if the case is topical or in the circle. Otherwise everything has fiat power. The Affirmative team has conditional fiat power. So if you're not in in the circle, no fiat power! No Solvency!

Could you explain the whole post-fiat, pre-fiat, deal please? ;)

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